tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6144798075848314516.post3021273258678896003..comments2015-06-16T08:28:49.790-04:00Comments on Cooking Up Romance: Beyond FeminismAnonymoushttp://www.blogger.com/profile/18187344643700994108noreply@blogger.comBlogger7125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6144798075848314516.post-21131575185887355502015-05-20T00:23:56.380-04:002015-05-20T00:23:56.380-04:00Really late to the discussion here. I never really...Really late to the discussion here. I never really thought about the beyond series as being feminist. If something is anti-feminist, I tend to just not read it, and that leads to an array of different configurations that may or may not be feminist. But then I read misTaken from Hot Alphas and was just appalled at the denigration of those who enjoy romance and with the feminist diatribe/apologetic vibe that switches to submission for submissions sake. I found it sort of offensive. Right after that I read Beyond Innocence and the feminist themes just hit me over the head. Granted some of that was because Lili was learning how free she could be. But yeah, seen in comparison to Hot Alphas (which had to be some naive writer trying to figure out feminism in romance), it was eye opening. It's one of my favorite series. And within the constrains if the genre is day they do a good job, though I'd like to see a femdom couple.<br /><br />Basically speaking, I agree, this site does show social change, more so in this latest book where note we've got a lady spy.Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11628382420435864397noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6144798075848314516.post-77994644552074525402014-11-13T19:56:29.231-05:002014-11-13T19:56:29.231-05:00Okay, I'll keep reading. ; )
I agree that th...Okay, I'll keep reading. ; )<br /><br /><br />I agree that the lack of baby epilogues, the fact that some of the couples aren't strictly speaking monogamous, and the omission of marriage are all revisionist. I definitely think the Beyond series is more feminist than most romances. But again, I'd rather talk about how texts "do" gender and sexuality than debate whether they are or are not feminist.Emma Barrynoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6144798075848314516.post-31272388411459264202014-11-13T18:49:51.054-05:002014-11-13T18:49:51.054-05:00You should definitely read Beyond Solitude novella...You should definitely read Beyond Solitude novella, Mia and Ford's book. They are not exhibitionists, they story is actually very private and you learn a ton about the inner workings of Sector 2.<br /><br />"Maybe the question should be instead what are the books saying about sexism, gender, violence, and sexuality?" <br /><br />I agree, that would be more interesting questions to ask about the books.<br /><br /><br />Like Elisabeth, I am curious where Jared's story will go. They posted the first chapter of Beyond Innocence today. And while I wished they would have made him some sort of beta hero, instead more a different kind of Alpha, I do wonder how his version of masculinity (cultured, refined, controlled) will be portrayed against the prevailing thuggish version that predominates in the books.<br /><br />As to whether they are creating subversive HEA's within Romance, I think Bree and Donna often mention how much push back they get on their HEAs. There is exactly one baby in the O'Kane and it doesn't belong to any of the book couples. That shouldn't be that remarkable in this day and age but apparently they still get a lot of knock against their work for it, despite the fact that all the characters end up in committed if unconventional relationships.<br /><br /><br />I do think the true HEA in the novels however are that one can find belonging, meaning and love in families created out of loyalty and sacrifice, not simply in groups bound by blood and marriage.Ananoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6144798075848314516.post-59827444494627040142014-11-13T17:13:36.429-05:002014-11-13T17:13:36.429-05:00You're so smart! Yes, it's easy to get cau...You're so smart! Yes, it's easy to get caught up in a label debate and you're totally right that ultimately how we label it isn't what's important. Hey, actually there was a Wonkomance post about genre labels today that was really interesting: http://wonkomance.com/2014/11/13/virtual-shelves-meta-that-matters-and-shades-of-should/. I'm going to create a Very Good Books shelf on Goodreads now.<br /><br />And if I inspired to you to keep reading the series then that makes me happy. The political stuff is totally what's keeping me going now that I've kinda overdosed on their particular brand of raunchy, orgiastic sex. It's the questions of power in interpersonal relationships, civil society, and the state that I find fascinating: some of that is gender-based, but the economic piece is as least if not more important. I would expect more of that as we get closer to the end. So read away and then we can talk political theory. And actually, let me know when you're ready for the next one--my recollection is that they may be Kindle-lendable.Elisabeth Lanehttp://www.cooking-up-romance.com/noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6144798075848314516.post-22001670523029952432014-11-13T16:21:58.370-05:002014-11-13T16:21:58.370-05:00Hmm...within genre romance, probably not. ; )
So...Hmm...within genre romance, probably not. ; )<br /><br /><br />Something that's truly subversive is going to explode genre boundaries and expectations in ways that would be unpalatable to romance readers. I can think of films that do it (e.g., Mulvey's Riddle of the Sphinx), but they throw out the narrative baby with the bath water. I can't imagine it working in romance. <br /><br /><br />What I was trying to say was that sometimes we want to call stuff that's interrogates gender norms (or whatever) feminist and we should be careful about this. I have a running argument with a friend of mine about whether The Simpsons revises the family sitcom. Her argument is that in so many ways it does--but it also keeps the nuclear family intact, which is what I point out every time we have the discussion. So The Simpsons is revisionist but ultimately conservative (as in, it conserves the genre). While the show plays with the elements of something like Leave it to Beaver to All in the Family or Family Ties or whatever, they are the same elements. <br /><br /><br />So the Beyond series seems to be doing that to a certain extent. It plays with the elements, but they're the same elements. It's playful but not subversive. But at the end of the day, I'm not really interested in whether the Beyond series feminist or sexist because I think they're good books. (And you've inspired me to keep reading them. I will say that what I find most interesting about them is the sort of over-arching political stuff, not the sex or even the romances.) Maybe the question should be instead what are the books saying about sexism, gender, violence, and sexuality? What imaginative answers are they giving to questions about power? About how societies should be organized? Etc. These answers are ultimately going to be a more complicated one than just saying "they're feminist" or "they're not feminist."Emma Barrynoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6144798075848314516.post-69155361663443363272014-11-13T16:07:23.898-05:002014-11-13T16:07:23.898-05:00I think things do change more in later books and i...I think things do change more in later books and in the novellas. For one thing, the novellas focus in on different aspects of the world than the full-length novels do: the most recent one gives us more details about Sector 4 history and the marketplace, for example. As Dallas' power base expands in later books, we also get glimpses of other Sectors (including Sector Two, especially in book 5) and there is continual fretting about how to manage more territory with the same resources--manpower/muscle but also through efficiency and diversification. Six comes into her own with respect to muscle, as do Noelle & Mia on the business side. And in two of the more recent books, we get pairs that aren't into the group sex thing, even if they are still kinky (Ford & Mia, Tatiana & Zan). If the overarching arc is going where I think it's going, the relationship between Eden and the Sectors is going to change fundamentally by the end of the series. I don't want to oversell the allegory, but I think the story really will end up being one of how full participation, freedom, equality and respect of women makes everyone stronger as Sectors that resist that reality fall. <br /><br />Also, I totally agree that I'd love to see a different kind of hero in the series, but you know I'm always begging for more non-alphas. I do kind of feel like we're back to "the market" there though. The romance market wants alpha heroes. I think, in particular the MC market is beholden to this structure and these, at least nominally, are kind of like MC books maybe? I don't know, I haven't read a "true" MC rom. It will be interesting to see what happens in the next Beyond book with Jared the male prostitute as the hero. He's not a guy who seems inclined to solve problems with his fists, but you never know what might happen when a supporting character becomes a hero. <br /><br />I'm also interested in your comment at the end about how the books aren't as feminist or subversive as they could be and I guess I just wonder how feminist or subversive we can get in genre romance. I mean, with some few variants to take into account same-sex relationships, menage romances and HFN endings, in the vast majority of romance, we're still mostly looking at one man + one woman = marriage, children, house, maybe work or spirituality if we're looking at a book with an unusual amount of context. And while maybe elements of that aren't as much of a given as they once were, that's basically what any romance is aiming at. In general, and maybe this is sad or limiting, I consider romances to be feminist that aren't in some way explicitly anti-feminist. Can you give an example of a work you'd consider to be particularly feminist and subversive?Elisabeth Lanehttp://www.cooking-up-romance.com/noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6144798075848314516.post-46676413835273438552014-11-13T13:25:52.331-05:002014-11-13T13:25:52.331-05:00I enjoyed the RNFF piece but also thought it wasn&...I enjoyed the RNFF piece but also thought it wasn't precisely right. To me the "problem" with the Beyond series--and I don't really think it has a problem per se, but rather, the place from which I can see someone launching a valid feminist critique--is the overwhelming sameness of the narrative arcs. I've only read the first three books, but while Noelle, Lexi, and Six were very different characters, I found their respective romantic arcs somewhat similar: Noelle had to learn to discard the definitions of purity and virtue she'd learned in Eden; Lexi had to learn to trust Dallas and to put her experiences in Sector Two (a place I want to know more about) into context; Six had to learn to trust Bren and to put her experiences in Sector Three into context. The men, who are all more or less alpha, screwed up by assuming they knew better than their lovers what they wanted. They all broke up. They all got back together. Kink and group sex were part of all these journeys.<br /><br />There's nothing wrong or inherently anti-feminist about any of these narratives. Noelle/Jax was the most traditional; Lexi/Dallas probably the least because of how important she was in running Sector Four. Any of these books could be defended as feminist. But when each of the women makes similar choices, and when the men do as well, it begins to seem less like individual choices and more like another form of socialization that while not as limiting as Eden (or even perhaps our world) maybe isn't truly subversive.<br /><br />I'd love to see what Rocha might do with a beta hero. Or with a femdom story, as you suggest. Or with a character who isn't into kink and exhibitionism. Or how one of their characters might critique the submission as power play narrative (which shows up in BDSM romances all the time and also in Evangelical culture; Marie Griffith's fascinating God's Daughters could offers a good description of this, and applies to Noelle's life in Eden). I'd also like the series to deal with how Dallas rules on a day-to-day basis because the sort of feudal anarchy he's been able to get away with so far isn't going to cut it as his power grows.<br /><br />So...yes. The series has a lot to say about power and gender and violence. But while the RNFF review didn't totally convince me, I'm not sure Rocha's narrative when taken as an aggregate is as feminist or subversive as it could be.Emma Barrynoreply@blogger.com